Curse

Abedeus · Mar 09, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

I think that IW was a non-elite skill.

Racthoh · Mar 09, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

It was Hundred Blades that was non-elite, but even back then hitting twice with IW every 8 seconds wasn't very scary.

fenix · Mar 09, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Nerfs are necessary. Lets take a look see if things weren't nerfed in this game...

[skill]Hundred Blades[/skill][skill]Illusionary Weaponry[/skill]

LOL!

They're both elites, gtfo.

EDIT: The change to Hundred Blades doesn't count, that was so long ago and wasn't in the game long enough as a non elite to count as a 'skill balance'.

Balances are usually good, but sometimes there's just RIDICULOUS changes, that make no sense. Like adding Cracked Armor to Lightning Orb. Or this;

Foul Feast: decreased casting time to .25 seconds; this skill has been moved to the Soul Reaping attribute; changed functionality to: "All conditions are transferred from target other ally to yourself. For each condition acquired in this way, you gain 0...36...45 Health and 0...2...3 Energy."

Or even;

"Watch Yourself!": functionality changed to: "Party members within earshot gain +5...21...25 armor for 10 seconds. This shout ends after 1...3...3 incoming attack[s]."

Racthoh · Mar 09, 2008, 07:43 AM // 07:43

I would like to see Incoming! get the Watch Yourself! treatment, maybe give command another playable elite. (Crippling and Guidance are too scarce)

fenix · Mar 09, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58

You would have to make Incoming! useful again though... Like, make it 2...5 or 3...7, rather than the 1...3 abortion of a skill that it is now. The Watch Yourself! description would make it pretty useful then, I know I would bring it on occasion >.>

yesitsrob · Mar 09, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Skullclamp was so stupid. so was Jitte, pretty sure that was from same cycle.

Toa Hahli · Mar 09, 2008, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Sigh, so uninformed, so little evidence to backup.

-"PvPers" don't think they are better than most players. They are, and they know.
- If you haven't noticed yet, most of the best PvPers on this forum don't post in topics about PvErs vs PvPer. Prehaps they have realised that the majority will never accept facts.
- From the viewpoint of good PvPers, it's the PvErs who acts like 13 year olds. Denial, elitism over vanity equipment, jealously, egoist without any good reason what so ever, lack of understand about balance, flaming about things you don't understand (balance), thinking their good when they are not. Yeah, so mature you PvErs are, atleast some PvPers can back up their elitist and egoist attitudes with skill, knowledge and understanding.

Yea well i dont claim myself to be 'Elite' Im one of the very few who see Paragon as one of the best classes for PvP and PvE, Both sides of GW takes time to master, PvP taking a bit longer, Im not trying to say PvP is lame. Not at all, all im saying is arguments like this is why i dont PvP anymore. I used to use AB to make fun of warriors with Mending and Flesh Golems, but with everyone being so trigger happy with the /report command im afraid ill get banned for Verbal Abuse.

Anyways, after playing abit, these 'nerfs' hardly effect anyone. People just dont like to Modify to Adjust to the changes. Again, its always fun to watch Dervs bitch about Mystic Regen xD

The Real Roy Keane · Mar 09, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

You would have to make Incoming! useful again though... Like, make it 2...5 or 3...7, rather than the 1...3 abortion of a skill that it is now.

And then we'd have everyone running dual Command Paragons again, and nothing would die.

Snow Bunny · Mar 09, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcobra

This is a lie. I spend several minutes having to change my hero bars when they're severely affected by skill balances.

However, it is true that in order to PvP, you have to have a very good knowledge of game mechanics and you pretty much end up knowing every skill in the game and what it does. This is not true for people who don't PvP, as you don't really need to know it.
Because of this built-up knowledge of the game, PvP players are better at this game in general. They are more adaptable and, by nature, able to devise solutions to problems they face in the game.

I don't honestly think that there has ever been a skill balance that has made it impossible to complete an area in PvE. Sure, you might have to change strategies, or it might take longer. Hell, you might have to actually play smart. Still, the level of redundancy in this game assures that those areas can still be beaten.

As for Mind Blast, it's still good. Just run 14 fire instead of 15 now.

If you don't feel like Microing your heroes, like myself, just run dual-attune. You get roughly the same efficiency.

fenix · Mar 10, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane

And then we'd have everyone running dual Command Paragons again, and nothing would die.

Not really, because 5-6 hits and both copies of Incoming! would be gone...

Mr_Unlucky · Mar 10, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

I dont cry about the balances because im intellingent person who realises guild wars skills are build to work in Pve and Pvp . and Balance comes in Pvp. Farming can get the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO out .
Also the words "Nerfing" and "Buffing" are somewhat misleading. Its balancing, of course i understand the need for those words ,but i dont like to use them.
Also people who cry about changes are those who play one character/profession. They ARE assassins for example, "I am assassin and nerfing shadow prison whatever is direct assault from anet agains me, the naruto ninja" ;( wah wah.

hondy · Mar 10, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59

I tell you what I find kinda funny. The fact PvErs are complaining about the nerf of skills when practically all PvErs are overpowered! With PvE only skills that can practically take down several mobs in seconds. They have the ability to switch out armour sets to correspond to there oponents, overpowering there protectivness. A few skills get buffed and a few rants begin, but when it comes down to it, they still own.

It's beggining to take the challenge out of the game with different skills and armour combinations overtaking guild wars.

If you care about PvP, you'll see these nerfs and buffs as a blessing, but if you enjoy PvE your just going to complain. The games already easy enough without your complaining. I understand if some of your favourite skills got completely destroyed, but that's a part of the developing games. If everyone used the best skills out there the game begins to get boring and slowed down because you knew everyone would be using a certain build.

I remember a time when there was the old assassin/warrior build using burst of agression to speed up attacks and shadow prison to shadow step in. It became so widly used that monks would simply bring in Hex Breaker to counter shadown prison.

Adaption has been apart of guild wars since the start, I like our new changes.

Cebe · Mar 10, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

It's a great thing to nerf some more popular templates and buff some unused ones to create diversity and to not stick with the same cookie-cutter stuff we've had.

Quoted for Truth. It took me a while after starting GW to realise that skill balances are not just to piss off players, or balance an area of the game, but also a great opportunity to chuck out some of the older builds currently in use, and try new ones with more interesting, less used skills. I think learning to accept the fact that skills change comes with maturity and experience with the game.

Some skill balances completely fail though (in my mind), such as "Incoming!"...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I would like to see Incoming! get the Watch Yourself! treatment, maybe give command another playable elite. (Crippling and Guidance are too scarce)

...Crippling and Guidance are scarce, and I never feel I should use them over another elite. "Incoming!", if it was that bad, surely, didn't need a nerf - it needed a complete rework. At least through changing the functionality of the skill it means that the skill would still be useable, and it would seem less like Paragons had an elite skill removed from the game.

yesitsrob · Mar 10, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Incoming did need a complete rework really. If it was usable it would have been because it's overpowered just by the sheer nature of the skill. Giving it the WY treatment (like Racthoh said) is a very solid idea if it was to be brought back into play again I think. Personally I don't care if it is

I think the game is okwithout it.

DarklingKiller · Mar 11, 2008, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Most of the PvErs complain about the nerfs because they are nerfing balanced builds that the Ursan-haters use. They should focus their attention on nerfing Ursan instead of nerfing the PvP and PvE skills.

Racthoh · Mar 11, 2008, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarklingKiller

Most of the PvErs complain about the nerfs because they are nerfing balanced builds that the Ursan-haters use.

I'd say the majority of the complaints are more about farming builds.

arcanemacabre · Mar 11, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I tried that Ursan-wanna-be skill that one gets before actually obtaining Ursan - and it was FAB! Sure it pretty much only matched my damage output (without the other bonuses of my ritu build) - but it was funfunfun!

Oh it's hella fun the first time you use it; but it's only downhill from there. After you get the skill, and try it out a little bit, realizing it makes areas you normally have trouble in a piece of cake... well... you can only eat so much cake till you want meat again. For me, it was about my third zone. Meat is so much better.

Avarre · Mar 11, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

People complain because once they find a way to boil down the entire complexity of the game to pressing a few buttons over and over, they believe they are entitled to it forever.

Part of this is because they don't understand the concept of balance means you aren't supposed to be able to take on the entire world at once, and part of it is because it takes away their precious game gold potential (serious business indeed).

Longasc · Mar 11, 2008, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

So after looking through most of Riverside, Sardelac, and Campfire, I noticed that a good 80% of the community is either crying about how Anet favors PvP more than PvE, how Anet loves to nerf everything, and how Anet doesn't care about the casual gamer.

People usually react more strongly on nerfs than on buffs. Just like it hurts you more when I take something away from you than you are happy about getting something else in return. And it is typical for forums that things get dramatized, not always, but usually.

See "Watch Yourself" nerf, bugs me to no end. Why? Is there a reason in some forms of PvP where it was a problem? Were Paragons again doing something gay with a shout?
Now many people do not watch GvG finals on observer mode or play GvG, if they do not find a PvE reason why it has been nerfed, it must be PvP (anger +1, PvP becomes the evil enemy).
Again, even if you have an idea why this or that nerfed, does not mean you agree that this fixes or solves a problem. See Ancestor's Rage, many people still think it should cost 10 energy or have a longer cast or whatever. And they are not PvE players, who usually do not want anything nerfed and some would really love bows shooting nuclear warheads. This is a complaint by PvP players, who in general try to curb down stronger skills.

Even if you come to the conclusion that something must be done about it, you can still dislike the way the problem is solved. Too often skills are destroyed in the process to the point where nobody uses them. Problem solved, in a way I cannot agree to. And many other probably neither.

I also do not like the "Shields Up" change, but I might assume Izzy did not want non-removable blocking and so on.
Does not mean because I can understand it that I will be happy about it.

You make it sound as if it requires people to play some more PvP and then they automatically agree and understand why Izzy nerfed this or that skill.

This is not true! People, regardless if they play a lot of pvp or not, do not agree to everything he did and will do in future.

Let's say some 70-80 or even more % of GW players play PvP only on a very casual level, rarely, or even never at all.
They get skills changed and do not even know why. They cannot accept that and do not like that. Suddenly things changed, and they do not like it.

This is like Europeans getting less meat and potatoes and both being limited to very tiny amounts per day because Americans are getting too fat. You can switch around Euros and Americans, I do not want to insult americans, just trying to illustrate my point.

Then PvE and PvP are very different. PvE is a fight of a party of 8 versus huge, mindless masses of NPCs that have some extras to make up for their natural deficiencies. PvP is 8 vs 8 player parties fighting each other, in general. HA/AB/RA are of course different, but it is still players versus other players.

Some classes are advantage in the one or the other form of play, think of Assassins, Mesmers and Necros. The latter seem to be improved for PvP recently, while Mesmers and Assassins needed some PvE skills and some more additions to become more viable and more accepted in PvE, which did not really happen despite all tries (IMO). I intentionally do not name Paragons which can contribute and are still unpopular in PvE, especially since SY+TNTF. I do not know it and do not want to speculate about why.

PvP balance is the priority, and if you do not care strongly about one, you give a damn about reasons from "the other side".
Which is usually PvP, ANet does not care as much about PvE design/balancing, PvE "balance" (i.e. not too difficult, not too easy) is definitely not as important. Still, I wish they did take some more pains to make it more interesting. PvE got ever easier, and I blame it to the fact that it was not challenging enough to give people any incentive to get better, causing a downward spiral.

ANet has to change a lot of things, they wanted PvE to lead to PvP, not people sticking with PvE only for 3 years. PvP and PvE are so separate, but still PvP has more influence on PvE over skills. But PvE gets all the new content, and while PvP does not really need that much content, it suffers from this division ANet probably never wanted, too.

Cebe · Mar 11, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesitsrob

Incoming did need a complete rework really. If it was usable it would have been because it's overpowered just by the sheer nature of the skill. Giving it the WY treatment (like Racthoh said) is a very solid idea if it was to be brought back into play again I think. Personally I don't care if it is

I think the game is okwithout it.

The game probably is ok without it, but my main issue with "Incoming!" wasn't that is got hit, it's that it seems unfair to Paragons. I know, I know, Paragons are imbalanced anyways (

), but I always felt that they should have the right to choose from 15 elites, rather than 14, moreso since Paragons do not have the same number of elites as pre-existing classes.